Regarding whom the Bible teaches raised Jesus from the dead, please consider possibility that the Bible might be contradicting itself. John 2:19,21 (written after Paul's letters) might be contradicting what Galatians 1:1 says. Keep in mind that the gospel attributed as being according to John is the book of the Bible which makes the strongest claim of Jesus being "a god" or God - more so than another biblical book.
Disillusioned JW
JoinedPosts by Disillusioned JW
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103
Jesus is Michael the Archangel
by Fisherman inonly jesus has the power and authority to defeat satan and kick him out of heaven:.
“now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our god and the authority of his christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our god.”.
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WT resumes public ministries*
by Smiles infrom jw org news alert:.
breaking news | resuming public witnessing.
on may 31, 2022, the governing body informed all branch committees that they may now resume all forms of public witnessing with the exception of the door-to-door ministry.
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Disillusioned JW
Thanks for the picture blondie! What WTS publication did it come from? Another thing to keep in mind is that in the old biblical manuscripts there were no blank spaces between individual words (since the papyrus or leather was expensive). That made it even harder for people to read the scrolls back then. People had to be trained not just to read, but to recognize where one word ended and another word began on the scrolls. In a number of modern day Jewish synagogues the person doing the reading of the text uses a pointer stick to keep track of his (or her) place in the reading of the scrolls. I saw that in photos in college textbooks (about comparative religion) and in videos on TV (about the Jewish religion).
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103
Jesus is Michael the Archangel
by Fisherman inonly jesus has the power and authority to defeat satan and kick him out of heaven:.
“now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our god and the authority of his christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our god.”.
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Disillusioned JW
jhine, how about the verses in the OT which say the "sons of God" (such as at Genesis 6:2 and Job 1:6 [in both the NKJV and the in the 1984 NWT, for example], the latter verse even saying, or suggesting, that even Satan is one of the sons of God). Is one part of the Bible contradicting another part of the Bible in regards to how many sons God has? Wouldn't be more accurate to say that the Bible teaches God has multiple sons, but that the Bible says Jesus is God's only begotten son - thus meaning that the other sons of God (according to the Bible) were not begotten.?
Since you quoted 1:14 I looked up it up in the 1984 NWT and notice I has a very different wording, saying "... such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father ...'. I haven't yet checked to determine which translation is better.
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24
Which Bible Translation.....
by BoogerMan in....is the best, in your opinion?.
out of the numerous translations i've had/used, i can honestly state that the 2001 translation is head & shoulders above all the others i've ever consulted, imo.
the publishers even invite suggestions/corrections to be submitted.
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Disillusioned JW
iloowy.goowy, they state their reasons why they have the divine name in the NT. Did you read their reasons? I think they gave good reasons, including the specific reasons for each of the verses where they have it. As a result of me doing research from various sources I think the Gospel of Mathew first existed in Hebrew, Aramaic, or Syriac - before it existed in Greek. Church father Jerome said Matthew first wrote his gospel in Hebrew script (or even in Hebrew language) and others later translated it into Greek as best they could. I also think it had the divine name in it. I think some NT manuscripts dated to before 250 CE will be found containing the divine name.
I think that fragments of the Gospel of the Nazarenes will be found (which Jerome said was written in Hebrew scripts, and Jerome quotes from it), much like how the Gospel of Thomas was found. I think the Gospel of the Nazarenes contained the divine name.
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_the_Nazarenes , Hebrew Gospel hypothesis - Wikipedia , and The Hebrew Christ: Language in the Age of the Gospels (English and French Edition): Tresmontant, Claude: 9780819908766: Amazon.com: Books .
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540
Simple Question Re 1914
by Slidin Fast inwt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!
and the end times.
a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?
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Disillusioned JW
Vanderhoven7, regarding your comment that the temple has been destroyed (with the exception the Western Wall, as mentioned by Jammer) some fundamentalist Christians, including some who are TV evangelist theologians, say that in our modern times the temple will be rebuilt and later be destroyed by the anti-Christ. They thus teach that conditions will exist for a second fulfillment in regards to the temple being destroyed. I've seen a number of movies (which I think are based upon books by Tim Francis LaHaye, who was a baptist evangelical Christian minister, but is now dead) which depict this idea.
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540
Simple Question Re 1914
by Slidin Fast inwt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!
and the end times.
a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?
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Disillusioned JW
Vanderhoven7, while Matthew chapter 24 probably was meant to entirely be fulfilled in the 1st century CE, and that Revelation was probably meant to be fulfilled before the revolt of Simon bar Kokhba, it means the scriptures partially failed. That is partly because the human governments have not been replaced by one government with Christ as king over every human. It is also because of what I state below.
I noticed that you say to that disprove your conclusion, namely that which you list as option "c.", "one would have to find something in verses 1-35 that clearly did not happen in the first century A.D.". I found somethings which which meet that test. Namely, what is described in Matthew 24:30-31 have not happened yet! People have not seen "the Son of man coming on clouds of heaven with power and great glory." Likewise Christ, by means of his angels (by the way, does that suggest Christ is in some sense an archangel in charge of other angels? Rev. 12:7 says Michael has angels under his command), has not gathered the chosen ones "from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity." Furthermore the tribulation of 70 CE was not as great as that of the latter part of the Sion bar Kokhba's revolt/war with the Romans (which ended in about 135 CE). That means that Matthew 24:21 was not fully fulfilled in the 1st century CE, since the latter part of that verse says that there would be a great tribulation of such tremendous magnitude that it would not occur again (meaning it would not be exceeded or equaled by another). Yet what happened in about 135 CE was greater in impact upon the Jews than what happened in 70 CE, and the Nazi holocaust was even more tremendous upon the Jews.
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540
Simple Question Re 1914
by Slidin Fast inwt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!
and the end times.
a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?
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Disillusioned JW
scholar said something which supports the idea that Christ's presence starts before the great tribulation. Before I explain that I provide the following context.
On page 13 of this topic thread I said the following as part of a reply to Jeffro. "I noticed that the tribulation mentioned in Matthew chapter 24 (which is described as happening in Judea) is very different from the tribulation of Revelation and of the bowl's of wrath mentioned in Revelation. It is very difficult to correlate Revelation with Matthew chapter 24."
On page 14 of this topic thread scholar made a reply to Vanderhoven7 which besides addressing something Vanderhoven7 said, also pertains to whether the great tribulation follows or precedes the presence of Christ. There scholar said the following. "The book of Revelation with the Four Horsemen which nicley parallel those significant events discussed earlier in the Olivet Discourse ....".
How is Revelation related to the debate mentioned? [Note: the following quotes are from the 1984 NWT.] Well in Matthew 24:6-8 Jesus says what is to take place before the end. There he mentions wars in one place after another, food shortages, and earthquakes, and says such are "a beginning of pangs of distress". The parallel passage in Luke 21:11 amplifies this by also saying there will be pestilences. Furthermore, Luke 21:9 says "... these things must take place first, but the end does not [occur] immediately." Jesus indicates that such are to happen before the great tribulation, for in verse 9 of Matthew chapter 24 he says "Then people will deliver you up to tribulation". Still later, after he says the disgusting thing that causes desolation will be seen, in verse 21 he says "for then there will be great tribulation". Still later in 27 he says "so the presence of the son of man will be." The comment in verse 27 can be understood as meaning that after the great tribulation occurs, the presence of Christ will begin, but the specific wording in verse 27 can also be understood as saying that the presence of the Christ will be while the events of Matthew 24:6-26 are taking place, including visible people on Earth being falsely proclaimed as the Christ!
Now I tie in what Revelation says about the ride of the four horsemen. Revelation 6:2 mentions a rider on a white horse with a crown and conquering. Verses 3-4 mention a second rider on a horse, one who takes peace away from the earth so that people slaughter one another. Verses 5-6 mention a third rider on a horse, one who proclaims high prices for the basic food staples, thus indicating food shortages. Verses 7-8 mention a fourth rider on a horse, one who will bring death resulting from violence to people, from food shortage, and from deadly plague [it also says from wild beasts]. Revelation 6:3-8 thus well correlate with Matthew 24:7,12 and Luke 21:11! After the description of these events Revelation 7:14 speaks of those who "... come out of the great tribulation". Revelation 7:14 thus ties in with Matthew 24:21.
In the above verses we thus see a consistent sequence of events, with what is described in Revelation 6:3-8 being well correlated with Matthew 24:7,12 and Luke 21:11. But what about the first rider on a white horse, the one mentioned in Revelation 6:2, whose rider is mentioned as being noticed before the other three riders? What is the identity of this rider whose is wearing a crown that was given to him, who also went forth conquering? Well Revelation 19:11 speaks of a white horse with rider upon it who "is called Faithful and True" and who "judges and carries on war in righteousness" and verse 13 says "he is called The Word of God" (and the Gospel of John identifies the Word of God as Jesus Christ). Furthermore, Revelation 14:14 says that on "a white cloud" is 'someone seated like a son of man, with a golden crown". Well in the gospel of Matthew Jesus Christ refers to himself as the Son of man and in Matthew 24:30 Jesus says that "the Son of man" will be seen "coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." Regarding Revelation 6:2 saying the rider of the white horse "went forth conquering" Revelation 17:14 says that "the Lamb ... because he is Lord of lords and King of kings" will conqueror the ten kings. We know from other verses that according to the Bible Jesus Christ is Lord of lords and King of kings and that he will conqueror human "kings" and their governments. As result, the rider white of the horse mentioned in Revelation 6:2 must be Jesus Christ according to the Bible.
Furthermore, it appears as a result of analysis of scriptures in Matthew and Revelation that are highly correlated with each other, the Bible is saying that Christ was foretold to become crowned as king and to begin a conquest before the signs of: nations fighting nation in place after place, and food shortages and pestilences in place after place, and BEFORE THE GREAT TRIBULATION all begin, and that during this time people on Earth won't literally see Jesus Christ! It thus seems to also support the idea that Christ will be thus be present literally unseen before the great tribulation begins and before he comes noticeably/detectably to all people of the Earth. Furthermore, when did our world first experience a large number of nations fighting each other at the same time - in the same war? It was during the Great War (later called the World War 1) from 1914-1918!
It thus looks like I might have been wrong in thinking that the scriptures say Christ's presence comes after the great tribulation. It looks like scholar and the WT thus might be right that the Bible says the presence of Christ is initially invisible and begins before the great tribulation. Such an idea is a shock to me since it is the opposite of what I deduced about 22 years ago as an independent Christian (or even about 5 years earlier while I was still an active JW).Regarding references in Matthew 24:20 pertaining to "YOUR flight" and to "on the sabbath day" in our modern day there are Christians living in Jerusalem, even likely some Jehovah's Witnesses. In fact, recently JW.org announced that the entire NWT has been translated into modern Hebrew and is now available and that there are Hebrew speaking JW. The JW website says there are 2,021 JW "Ministers who teach the Bible" in Israel. Thus from a biblical perspective, could be a future secondary fulfillment of Christians needing to flee Jerusalem and Judea before a future great tribulation starts.
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540
Simple Question Re 1914
by Slidin Fast inwt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!
and the end times.
a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?
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Disillusioned JW
That is a good point Vanderhoven7 about the reference in Matthew chapter 24:20 to a Sabbath day, as the JWs and most other Christians (but not the SDA and some others) don't abstain form all work on a Sabbath day (whether the Jewish Sabbath day on the 7th day of the week, or the Christian Sabbath day on the 1st day of the week). It shows that text in Matthew about the tribulation (at least most of it) only pertains to the time of the 1st century in Judea. But perhaps it also indicates that the vast majority of Christians today by not keeping the 7th day Sabbath, are breaking a major law of Yahweh and are not following Christ in regards to observance of that Sabbath..
That reminds of something else also, namely the twisted way the WT sometimes states things. When I was a very active JW the WT had an article which said that JW don't observe the Sabbath, while at the same time it said that everyday JW rest from works to earn their own salvation (or prove their righteousness, or something like that) and thus observe a sabbath everyday. In other words, the WT was trying to make it sound that the JWs both don't observe the Sabbath and that the JWs do observe everyday as a sabbath. I thought that was a messed up deceptive doctrine, yet I mentioned that doctrine to a householder one day in field service when he asked if I (or the JWs) observe the Sabbath day. The WT had infected my thinking regarding whether the JW observe the Sabbath (or a sabbath) or not. -
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2034 - A Future History of Jehovah's Witnesses
by slimboyfat ini don't know what i am talking about... read this post at your peril.
back in the 1960s there was, seemingly, a brief period of relaxation in authoritarianism among jehovah's witnesses.
those who have read raymond franz's 'crisis of conscience' will have heard the story about dan sydlik's remark about the need to 'open some windows to let some air in here'.
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Disillusioned JW
The following is a reply to the very first post of this topic thread.
Back in the early to mid 1980s when Ronald Reagan was president of the U.S.A., I was thinking the great tribulation or Armageddon might start very soon, such as around 1984 or possibly sooner. That was largely because of the kinds of articles the WTS was putting in number of issues of the Watchtower and in the Awake! at the time, regarding Armageddon. It was also because of the idea of a generation being of 70 or 80 years (combined with the idea of the generation of 1914 CE), and because President Reagan was promoting the building of a "Star Wars" missile defense system, and he was drastically building up the U.S.A. military, and his administration was drastically spending much more money in the U.S..A.. military budget than was the case under President Carter. I was also worried because I read (and heard on the TV news) reports that the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists had moved the minute hand on their Doomsday Clock closer to midnight, indicating how very very close they thought the world was to a human caused doomsday. I thought a nuclear war might take place between the U.S.A. and the U.S.S.R. and as a result I wanted a drastic reduction in the number of nuclear weapons of both world powers. During the cold war with the U.S.S.R., in my anti-war mind President Reagan wanted to start a real ('hot") war with the U.S.S.R. and he thus scared me when I thought about it. I was also thinking that a false future cry claiming that "peace and security" has been achieved might happen very soon, to be immediately followed by the great tribulation. I got baptized in the very early 1980s while I was a young teenager.
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70
2034 - A Future History of Jehovah's Witnesses
by slimboyfat ini don't know what i am talking about... read this post at your peril.
back in the 1960s there was, seemingly, a brief period of relaxation in authoritarianism among jehovah's witnesses.
those who have read raymond franz's 'crisis of conscience' will have heard the story about dan sydlik's remark about the need to 'open some windows to let some air in here'.
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Disillusioned JW
Hypothetically speaking, if Jesus Christ does exist and does return in 2034 (or some other year), or if a great tribulation begins then, will it frighten the governing body? Will they be thinking and possibly even say the following. "We didn't actually expect Jesus Christ to return or for the great tribulation to happen. But, now that one of these events is happening what will happen to us? Oh dear, what will happen to us? We know we made false predictions and that on a number of times we mislead our readers, and that we lied to the governments. We know we caused psychological harm to many JW. We know that some JW died as a result of adhering to our prohibitions on blood transfusions; even some children died as a result. We know that our "two witness rule" has kept many sexually abused children, ones raised by JW parents, from getting the help they so desperately need. Will Christ judge us adversely? Will he execute us? Jehovah have mercy on us. Lord Jesus, please have mercy on us. Please spare us from your wrath."